Prateek Dayal

Hey,

I didnt expect that Proto.in was being talked about here, but anyways :) Actually I think you are right on spot. Muziboo took a hit partly cause of the way things went with SaffronConnect. Same space, same vision, and things simply arent moving. Is the idea too ahead of its time was the question. And I think we had a discussion about this as well.

There are plenty to talk about on this regard, but there are two things I’d point to.

1. “I guess its a combination of luck, persistence, execution and idea (in that order) that determines success”

If you had ten teams which had a combination of luck, persistence, execution, idea, how to you measure and narrow down the list? All of them are intangibles, and gets very hard to quantify.

2.”Most startups are one off successes.” – So how do humans measure chances? The assurance of winning gets as the same as winning a hand of poker. And unfortunately its only the one holding the cards who has a (relatively) better idea. Becomes even more harder for those who are watching and speculating.

In my opinion (and this is not anything that is the opinion of Proto.in *smiles*) is that successful entrepreneurs make their own road. Unfortunately, until we get to know each other (and its beginning to happen cause I am in touch with teams who will be presenting at proto.in two editions from now), and unless that long term interaction and guidance happens, its really hard to measure and indicate the perseverence, delivering capabilities and the domain understanding of the team. I, for a fact know, that to stay relevant the measures need to be done, but unfortunately, its also slightly long term.

if Rome was not built in a day, a “community” takes much longer to build. And of all folks, I know you would know that best.

Hey,

I didnt expect that Proto.in was being talked about here, but anyways :) Actually I think you are right on spot. Muziboo took a hit partly cause of the way things went with SaffronConnect. Same space, same vision, and things simply arent moving. Is the idea too ahead of its time was the question. And I think we had a discussion about this as well.

There are plenty to talk about on this regard, but there are two things I’d point to.

1. “I guess its a combination of luck, persistence, execution and idea (in that order) that determines success”

If you had ten teams which had a combination of luck, persistence, execution, idea, how to you measure and narrow down the list? All of them are intangibles, and gets very hard to quantify.

2.”Most startups are one off successes.” – So how do humans measure chances? The assurance of winning gets as the same as winning a hand of poker. And unfortunately its only the one holding the cards who has a (relatively) better idea. Becomes even more harder for those who are watching and speculating.

In my opinion (and this is not anything that is the opinion of Proto.in *smiles*) is that successful entrepreneurs make their own road. Unfortunately, until we get to know each other (and its beginning to happen cause I am in touch with teams who will be presenting at proto.in two editions from now), and unless that long term interaction and guidance happens, its really hard to measure and indicate the perseverence, delivering capabilities and the domain understanding of the team. I, for a fact know, that to stay relevant the measures need to be done, but unfortunately, its also slightly long term.

if Rome was not built in a day, a “community” takes much longer to build. And of all folks, I know you would know that best.

@Vijay: Thanks for the comment. This is an interesting debate and I would love to take it forward. So here it is :)

“the way things went with SaffronConnect. Same space, same vision, and things simply arent moving. Is the idea too ahead of its time was the question.”

I won’t agree there … As much as Saffron Connect was about glamorizing Bollywood and Desis, Muziboo is about democratizing music across languages and borders and I think we are doing that well (though we lack the huge scale). However this does not matter anymore … you guys are the final judge for your event and I won’t question that.

“In my opinion (and this is not anything that is the opinion of Proto.in *smiles*) is that successful entrepreneurs make their own road.”

Exactly .. you hit it right on the nail. However this is where I think it gets tricky. Proto has a name. I would say great power. And with great power comes great responsibility :) A proto can bias people for/against a startup. It does not *really* matter (only users do) but it does matter a bit. Hence the debate :)

“if Rome was not built in a day, a “community” takes much longer to build. And of all folks, I know you would know that best.”

Totally agree .. no complaints for sure :)

@Vijay: Thanks for the comment. This is an interesting debate and I would love to take it forward. So here it is :)

“the way things went with SaffronConnect. Same space, same vision, and things simply arent moving. Is the idea too ahead of its time was the question.”

I won’t agree there … As much as Saffron Connect was about glamorizing Bollywood and Desis, Muziboo is about democratizing music across languages and borders and I think we are doing that well (though we lack the huge scale). However this does not matter anymore … you guys are the final judge for your event and I won’t question that.

“In my opinion (and this is not anything that is the opinion of Proto.in *smiles*) is that successful entrepreneurs make their own road.”

Exactly .. you hit it right on the nail. However this is where I think it gets tricky. Proto has a name. I would say great power. And with great power comes great responsibility :) A proto can bias people for/against a startup. It does not *really* matter (only users do) but it does matter a bit. Hence the debate :)

“if Rome was not built in a day, a “community” takes much longer to build. And of all folks, I know you would know that best.”

Totally agree .. no complaints for sure :)

Actually SaffronConnect also went down for more of personal reasons than the lack of a business model. Kausik is a good acquaintance and he was one of the key guys behind some of the big record labels. Very few people really know the inside story as to what happened there.

Anyways, back to the topic, I think Muziboo’s differentiation has clearly stood out in the last few months, and I’d agree with you now. Then, it wasnt as much clear.

Proto’s power: Hmm. Not sure. I still would say that Proto.in is just a face, or a face that is emerging, not the power. The real value is always in the hands of the entrepreneurs who really build the value – with no one else. One reason why we never mention the names of people who dont make it, is also for this very same thing – so that we can give time, let them grow, and then relook the case. It has happened before, is happening for this edition and will happen again.

And I think “rejection” is a strong word. A second chance is more like it. Why else are we not releasing the list of all the nominations despite being at the verge of being beaten up :) Its not fair to the companies. Until you mentioned it, i doubt anyone even knew.

I hate the word “ecosystem” by now. Its being abused way too much. I prefer the word community. Its personal, small, closely-knit and is informal. Thats what I’d like to grow. We really dont have time for egos, and definitely not something worth spending time on – atleast if anything at all has to be done for the startups here.

PS: Did you get a chance to go to the developer summit?

Actually SaffronConnect also went down for more of personal reasons than the lack of a business model. Kausik is a good acquaintance and he was one of the key guys behind some of the big record labels. Very few people really know the inside story as to what happened there.

Anyways, back to the topic, I think Muziboo’s differentiation has clearly stood out in the last few months, and I’d agree with you now. Then, it wasnt as much clear.

Proto’s power: Hmm. Not sure. I still would say that Proto.in is just a face, or a face that is emerging, not the power. The real value is always in the hands of the entrepreneurs who really build the value – with no one else. One reason why we never mention the names of people who dont make it, is also for this very same thing – so that we can give time, let them grow, and then relook the case. It has happened before, is happening for this edition and will happen again.

And I think “rejection” is a strong word. A second chance is more like it. Why else are we not releasing the list of all the nominations despite being at the verge of being beaten up :) Its not fair to the companies. Until you mentioned it, i doubt anyone even knew.

I hate the word “ecosystem” by now. Its being abused way too much. I prefer the word community. Its personal, small, closely-knit and is informal. Thats what I’d like to grow. We really dont have time for egos, and definitely not something worth spending time on – atleast if anything at all has to be done for the startups here.

PS: Did you get a chance to go to the developer summit?

Vijay is the last person to care about startups. He seems to be using the proto platform to position himself as a startup guru. When the truth is he is nothing but a full of himself arrogant guy who couldn’t even run a startup with a A class team.

Why dont you start a startup make it very successful and then try and act like a startup guru?

Vijay is the last person to care about startups. He seems to be using the proto platform to position himself as a startup guru. When the truth is he is nothing but a full of himself arrogant guy who couldn’t even run a startup with a A class team.

Why dont you start a startup make it very successful and then try and act like a startup guru?

Love you too Anon :)

Love you too Anon :)

Getting back to the topic, Prateek, Do you think something like http://www.spigit.com/ would help in terms of what you are talking about? Have been mulling over something like that for a little while now.

Getting back to the topic, Prateek, Do you think something like http://www.spigit.com/ would help in terms of what you are talking about? Have been mulling over something like that for a little while now.

Vijay,

To those of us in small startups, Proto.in certainly looks/feels powerful :).

People are used to attributing power to the most visible thing, and Proto is certainly visible. And even though that may not be the Proto team’s aim, that’s what a lot of people take away. In a sense your promo is too powerful ;)

Anon,

There’s a quote I like – “Even though I’ve never laid an egg, I certainly know a bad one when I see it”. Some of the best VCs have never had their own startups.

Have you met Vijay personally? Vijay is a guy who’s frank with his thoughts, and he says what he thinks. Yes, sometimes that sounds brutal – but I’d prefer a guy like that any day to someone who’ll say something wishy-washy and nice, and do nothing to follow up.

Having been in Proto, the person who gave *least* gyan there was Vijay :). Trust me, we were getting gyan from the walls and plants at Proto :)). Vijay played the part of host very well, and at no point did I feel he was going to give us gyan.

Prateek,

Much as I hate to link to myself ;-), I too feel ideas are not key.

http://geekmoksha.blogspot.com/2007/12/ideas-important-for-entrepreneur.html

Prasanna

Vijay,

To those of us in small startups, Proto.in certainly looks/feels powerful :).

People are used to attributing power to the most visible thing, and Proto is certainly visible. And even though that may not be the Proto team’s aim, that’s what a lot of people take away. In a sense your promo is too powerful ;)

Anon,

There’s a quote I like – “Even though I’ve never laid an egg, I certainly know a bad one when I see it”. Some of the best VCs have never had their own startups.

Have you met Vijay personally? Vijay is a guy who’s frank with his thoughts, and he says what he thinks. Yes, sometimes that sounds brutal – but I’d prefer a guy like that any day to someone who’ll say something wishy-washy and nice, and do nothing to follow up.

Having been in Proto, the person who gave *least* gyan there was Vijay :). Trust me, we were getting gyan from the walls and plants at Proto :)). Vijay played the part of host very well, and at no point did I feel he was going to give us gyan.

Prateek,

Much as I hate to link to myself ;-), I too feel ideas are not key.

http://geekmoksha.blogspot.com/2007/12/ideas-important-for-entrepreneur.html

Prasanna

@Vijay: I do think Spigit is quite useful .. it gave us some good insights. They turned into some competition a bit too early though .. lately I have found LinkedIn answers to be very useful to get some feedback. What I was trying to say in the post was that its very useful to have feedback on topics/issues and sometimes not on the startup as a whole. When you look at something holistically .. it looks lame. Mostly true in case of startups :)
Hope you get what I am trying to say :)

@Prasanna: Thanks for the link … I do love that post .. hoping more people would read it.

@Vijay: I do think Spigit is quite useful .. it gave us some good insights. They turned into some competition a bit too early though .. lately I have found LinkedIn answers to be very useful to get some feedback. What I was trying to say in the post was that its very useful to have feedback on topics/issues and sometimes not on the startup as a whole. When you look at something holistically .. it looks lame. Mostly true in case of startups :)
Hope you get what I am trying to say :)

@Prasanna: Thanks for the link … I do love that post .. hoping more people would read it.

Prateek, Do agree with what you say. Maybe we should do something about how to get that level of intricate feedback. Any suggestions? I am open to it.

Prasanna, life is too short to be exchanging pleasantries, me thinks. How are things at Elina? We should catch up soon sometime.

Prateek, Do agree with what you say. Maybe we should do something about how to get that level of intricate feedback. Any suggestions? I am open to it.

Prasanna, life is too short to be exchanging pleasantries, me thinks. How are things at Elina? We should catch up soon sometime.

@Vijay: Am sure we can think of something .. OCC Bangalore seems to be doing a great job at it … lets take if offline and involve Vaibhav also in it. May be next time you are in Bangalore?

@Vijay: Am sure we can think of something .. OCC Bangalore seems to be doing a great job at it … lets take if offline and involve Vaibhav also in it. May be next time you are in Bangalore?

And I am totally with you. The sculpting work will definitely happen in the quaries (OCC, Startup Saturday), and the showcasing will happen in the “showcase platforms”.

Would love to catch up with you guys for an OCC. Its been on my agenda for quite sometime now. When is the next one planned? The one in Chennai is on the first sunday of June.

And I am totally with you. The sculpting work will definitely happen in the quaries (OCC, Startup Saturday), and the showcasing will happen in the “showcase platforms”.

Would love to catch up with you guys for an OCC. Its been on my agenda for quite sometime now. When is the next one planned? The one in Chennai is on the first sunday of June.

sad to know that at this nascent stage of web entrpreneurship in India, the animal farm cliche of ‘all startups are equal, but some more than others’ applies.. i personally think that every good idea needs to be applauded, irrespective of whether the environment is conducive to its success/ its too early for the market or any the 1001 other reasons which someone would come up with… but like you said, ‘good’ is a perspective, which may or may not be shared by others…..

sad to know that at this nascent stage of web entrpreneurship in India, the animal farm cliche of ‘all startups are equal, but some more than others’ applies.. i personally think that every good idea needs to be applauded, irrespective of whether the environment is conducive to its success/ its too early for the market or any the 1001 other reasons which someone would come up with… but like you said, ‘good’ is a perspective, which may or may not be shared by others…..

@Manuscrypts:
Its all a matter of perspective and what you are asking in return. If you tell me you have a great startup, I “might” agree. If you ask “ah okay, so give me a million dollars for it”, then I might have my own hesitations and need to measure it up as to how it holds. As long as you dont ask/expect anything from others, yep, you can pretty much live in a world of your own and dare the world away :)

@Manuscrypts:
Its all a matter of perspective and what you are asking in return. If you tell me you have a great startup, I “might” agree. If you ask “ah okay, so give me a million dollars for it”, then I might have my own hesitations and need to measure it up as to how it holds. As long as you dont ask/expect anything from others, yep, you can pretty much live in a world of your own and dare the world away :)

@vijay – agree about others sharing or not sharing a perspective, thats what i said earlier too… the point is that in an event like proto which is supposed to “celebrate entrepreneurship, to Showcase Innovative technology, to Encourage, grow and create entrepreneurial awareness, to create a community of startup entrepreneurs, who can grow in strength and numbers, drawing wisdom from each other” an entity like muziboo is not allowed to showcase its perspective… and that is sad

@vijay – agree about others sharing or not sharing a perspective, thats what i said earlier too… the point is that in an event like proto which is supposed to “celebrate entrepreneurship, to Showcase Innovative technology, to Encourage, grow and create entrepreneurial awareness, to create a community of startup entrepreneurs, who can grow in strength and numbers, drawing wisdom from each other” an entity like muziboo is not allowed to showcase its perspective… and that is sad

@Manuscrypts: Well, we do live in a very unfair world :)
At Proto.in, we have to make a cut and yep, it is sad. Wish there was unlimited supply of time, mentors, money, and world peace :P

Do we know each other? We should catch up sometime.

@Manuscrypts: Well, we do live in a very unfair world :)
At Proto.in, we have to make a cut and yep, it is sad. Wish there was unlimited supply of time, mentors, money, and world peace :P

Do we know each other? We should catch up sometime.

@vijay to that i agree wholeheartedly :)
no we don’t, we met here :) but that shouldn’t stop us from catching up sometime somewhere :)

@vijay to that i agree wholeheartedly :)
no we don’t, we met here :) but that shouldn’t stop us from catching up sometime somewhere :)

We should. Are you on twitter?
http://www.twitter.com/vijayanands

We should. Are you on twitter?
http://www.twitter.com/vijayanands

A nice debate …

Proto.in is most certainly a platform most of the startups look up to.
Probably the most difficult part of a start up is marketing and showing your presence to the world. And if featured in proto.in, it becomes a little bit easy.

Vijay,
Let me know if something similar to OCC is happening in Chennai and the venue. I would love to be a part of it.

Prateek,
I really love your zeel and enthu. I would love to discuss a few things with you.

Thanks,
Rashmi Ranjan Padhy
http://www.rashmiranjanpadhy.com

A nice debate …

Proto.in is most certainly a platform most of the startups look up to.
Probably the most difficult part of a start up is marketing and showing your presence to the world. And if featured in proto.in, it becomes a little bit easy.

Vijay,
Let me know if something similar to OCC is happening in Chennai and the venue. I would love to be a part of it.

Prateek,
I really love your zeel and enthu. I would love to discuss a few things with you.

Thanks,
Rashmi Ranjan Padhy
http://www.rashmiranjanpadhy.com

Rashmi,

The first open coffee club chapter in India
http://chennaiopencoffee.ning.com

Rashmi,

The first open coffee club chapter in India
http://chennaiopencoffee.ning.com

This is like asking, what works?
There could be no perfect critique.. but you got to pick right things from all the critics.

This is like asking, what works?
There could be no perfect critique.. but you got to pick right things from all the critics.

well, came to this post through Vinayak Hegde’s mail. I know your post about something else but thought I should clarify some points.

We had to call and ask the organizers about the results and the guy I called was clueless.

going back to the event, all of us at were really, really doing our best and all of us had our high-pressure day jobs. Some of us are entrepreneurs where pressure are even more. We sent back all the responses from our Review Panel to each and every applicant. If you did not get yours, I am sure that was an oversight due to pressure than ineptitude.

These events reminds me of my school that used to kick out every average guy (academically) and keep only the best of the best and then show a great success story in every board exam.

Come on Prateek, don’t kick us on the shin. say some nice words. we are doing more good then only showcase the best.

Suresh
Co-founder, KickStart

well, came to this post through Vinayak Hegde’s mail. I know your post about something else but thought I should clarify some points.

We had to call and ask the organizers about the results and the guy I called was clueless.

going back to the event, all of us at were really, really doing our best and all of us had our high-pressure day jobs. Some of us are entrepreneurs where pressure are even more. We sent back all the responses from our Review Panel to each and every applicant. If you did not get yours, I am sure that was an oversight due to pressure than ineptitude.

These events reminds me of my school that used to kick out every average guy (academically) and keep only the best of the best and then show a great success story in every board exam.

Come on Prateek, don’t kick us on the shin. say some nice words. we are doing more good then only showcase the best.

Suresh
Co-founder, KickStart

Hi Suresh

Thanks for the comment. As far as Startup Saturday initiative is concerned, I think you guys are doing a great job and I have also mentioned it in the post (along with OCC).

My crib was only with Proto and Headstart and more specifically about why rejection (or non-acceptance as Vijay calls it) there currently is no learning at all. I have also written my reasons for feeling the same way. As you said, you did send the responses. However we did not get it. May be that was the real issue.

In any case my whole point was that initiatives like OCC and Startup Saturday are at this point needed more, especially for young startups that I see coming up every day.

Hi Suresh

Thanks for the comment. As far as Startup Saturday initiative is concerned, I think you guys are doing a great job and I have also mentioned it in the post (along with OCC).

My crib was only with Proto and Headstart and more specifically about why rejection (or non-acceptance as Vijay calls it) there currently is no learning at all. I have also written my reasons for feeling the same way. As you said, you did send the responses. However we did not get it. May be that was the real issue.

In any case my whole point was that initiatives like OCC and Startup Saturday are at this point needed more, especially for young startups that I see coming up every day.

We’ve tried something new at Proto.in, in terms of how we finalize on the presenting companies – shows some very positive results. The issue of “not getting enough feedbacks” has magically vanished.

http://blog.proto.in/2008/06/26/update-on-the-protoin-nominations-for-jul-08/

We’ve tried something new at Proto.in, in terms of how we finalize on the presenting companies – shows some very positive results. The issue of “not getting enough feedbacks” has magically vanished.

http://blog.proto.in/2008/06/26/update-on-the-protoin-nominations-for-jul-08/

Hi Prateek,

To add to what Suresh said, I am not sure whom you spoke to. Each of our team members were involved in specific aspects of the event. May be the guy whom you spoke to was not part of the review committee which was facilitating the selection process. He should have communicated it to the review committee. Given that it was the first time we were doing such an event and everything that could go wrong, went wrong :). All said and done, each of the nominees irrespective of whether they made it to the final list or not, were communicated. If it did not reach you, then I guess it was an oversight, given that Consumer segment was the one which got huge number of nominations [no points for guessing why ;) ]. Do keep us posted and keep your comments flowing.

~Puneeth
Kickstart.in

Hi Prateek,

To add to what Suresh said, I am not sure whom you spoke to. Each of our team members were involved in specific aspects of the event. May be the guy whom you spoke to was not part of the review committee which was facilitating the selection process. He should have communicated it to the review committee. Given that it was the first time we were doing such an event and everything that could go wrong, went wrong :). All said and done, each of the nominees irrespective of whether they made it to the final list or not, were communicated. If it did not reach you, then I guess it was an oversight, given that Consumer segment was the one which got huge number of nominations [no points for guessing why ;) ]. Do keep us posted and keep your comments flowing.

~Puneeth
Kickstart.in

Hi Puneeth

Ok .. .here is the thing. I hope headstart team can use the feedback. Names mentioned here are not to point fingers at anyone.

On Jan 15th we sent an email to check for results to support@headstart.in and the mail bounced back.This was a day before the event. I had also emailed on the OCC list (replying to your email) asking if anyone else knows about the results. I think my mail should still be in the archives. No reply whatsoever.

Then I got an email on Jan 16th about “VC Networking at HeadStart on 19th Jan”. We still did not know if we had made it or not. This mail therefore was all the more confusing. The email listed Shaurabh Bharti and Ashish Kulkarni as contact people. We sent an email asking if we are in or not but then I also called about Sharuabh and he did not know either and told me he will call me back. After that we got an email saying that we are not in and this is a separate thing that we can participate in.

All in all it was quite confusing. I am not saying the spirit was not there, but there was lot of chaos.

given that Consumer segment was the one which got huge number of nominations [no points for guessing why ;) ].

In fact I would like to know why you think there are no points for guessing. Too easy to start?

Hi Puneeth

Ok .. .here is the thing. I hope headstart team can use the feedback. Names mentioned here are not to point fingers at anyone.

On Jan 15th we sent an email to check for results to support@headstart.in and the mail bounced back.This was a day before the event. I had also emailed on the OCC list (replying to your email) asking if anyone else knows about the results. I think my mail should still be in the archives. No reply whatsoever.

Then I got an email on Jan 16th about “VC Networking at HeadStart on 19th Jan”. We still did not know if we had made it or not. This mail therefore was all the more confusing. The email listed Shaurabh Bharti and Ashish Kulkarni as contact people. We sent an email asking if we are in or not but then I also called about Sharuabh and he did not know either and told me he will call me back. After that we got an email saying that we are not in and this is a separate thing that we can participate in.

All in all it was quite confusing. I am not saying the spirit was not there, but there was lot of chaos.

given that Consumer segment was the one which got huge number of nominations [no points for guessing why ;) ].

In fact I would like to know why you think there are no points for guessing. Too easy to start?

In fact I had posted a comment to the blog entry written here

http://blog.headstart.in/?p=13

I had written that I have not received any email regarding the results when in fact around 4th Jan, we got an email asking for some more details on Muziboo.

I got no response to the comment and now my comment is gone from the post. Also if you notice Shaurabh is the one who has written that blog post.

In the interest of free speech, deleting comments (unless they use explicit language) is not a great idea

In fact I had posted a comment to the blog entry written here

http://blog.headstart.in/?p=13

I had written that I have not received any email regarding the results when in fact around 4th Jan, we got an email asking for some more details on Muziboo.

I got no response to the comment and now my comment is gone from the post. Also if you notice Shaurabh is the one who has written that blog post.

In the interest of free speech, deleting comments (unless they use explicit language) is not a great idea

Hey Prateek,
All I said was it was an oversight that you did not receive. I was the one co-ordinating with the review committee. We will definitely use this feedback for the upcoming event and will be on the top of my list of TODOs.

Regarding, the consumer segment – yes it is too easy to start in the sense that you don’t need to invest too much money in getting started. Most of them had based their business model around Ads.

Will catch up with you at one of the OCC or StartupSaturdays.

Meanwhile, keep your feedback/comments flowing – good or bad. They will help us plan better next time around.

~Puneeth

Hey Prateek,
All I said was it was an oversight that you did not receive. I was the one co-ordinating with the review committee. We will definitely use this feedback for the upcoming event and will be on the top of my list of TODOs.

Regarding, the consumer segment – yes it is too easy to start in the sense that you don’t need to invest too much money in getting started. Most of them had based their business model around Ads.

Will catch up with you at one of the OCC or StartupSaturdays.

Meanwhile, keep your feedback/comments flowing – good or bad. They will help us plan better next time around.

~Puneeth

Cool .. no issues. If you still have that email I would like to go over it. The one with feedback on Muziboo.

Cool .. no issues. If you still have that email I would like to go over it. The one with feedback on Muziboo.

Digging through. Should reach you in few minutes

Digging through. Should reach you in few minutes